Forget grammer.
I’m just glad when people speak English in the work place

“Smart” people using the excuse that it does not matter if one uses incorect language, (other than a missing comma, etc.)maybe are not all that smart. Certainly, the impresssion is that something is missing from their education or that they are just plain lazy. Poor language does have an impact, if not for the individual, perhaps for a whole generation of people. If one were truly “smart”, one ought to be able to discern that.

The last incomplete sentence of the next to the last paragraph should read: “And Joe should, too.”

English is not my native language, so I can hardly be accused of grammar snobbery. I think we’re not talking about purism in language/grammar, but simply about legibility of online material (emails, blogs, etc.).

I really cannot claim to have perfect command of the English grammar, but if I manage to know when to use “your” vs. “you’re”, “than” vs. “then” and where to have commas and periods, so can everyone else who had the privilege of being born and educated here.

And it’s really not about the “purity” of the language, but about being able to understand what we read without having to re-read it many times. Commas are not just fancy ornaments for snobs, they are part of written language, they make text meaningful and easy to read the way author intended. Nobody is telepathic to “hear” your emotions and inflections when you type up newsgroups entries.

But really, people who make all these mistakes don’t do it on purpose. But if you at least care enough to help others understand what you are trying to say (“get your point across”) you will care to try and write with correct grammar and punctuation. It’s your opinion, why wouldn’t you care?

Grammer and professionalism are very important in the business world. I work for a major bank and my former manager’s grammer and vocabulary were so bad it was embarassing to introduce her to customers. Several times very important customers wondered why the bank would hire a hillbilly to manager their millions.

I have been told that the French are annoying regarding their language for a reason. For a long time they did not have an unified language; they spoke mostly the dialect of each area . After WWII there was an effort by De Gaulle’s government to make everyone speak the same, and that’s why they are so obsessive about it.
I do not know if the story is true, but it is plausible, since in Spain there are several “languages” besides Spanish (and do not dare to call them “dialects”, or they’ll throw you out of town!)

I just want to counter that bit about the French in the last part of the post, lest stereotypes about them get needlessly perpetuated. My French is far from perfect, but nobody in the 3 months that I was there ever corrected my pronunciation or grammar. Anytime an American feels the need to take a dump on French culture (“it’s all that’s left of their once dominant culture”), it betrays a bit of arrogant insecurity. Perhaps you are noticing that our once dominant American culture and influence is being slowly diminished in the same way?

A note to Ms. Quan: I like the French very much and have always loved the time I spent there. I’m sorry if I offended any French people or people who like French people. And as to her last point: that was my point.

Some terrible grammar that appears to have come into more common usage is just horrible. Being “axed” to do something, “I seen”, “we was”, etc. Every time I hear phrases of that type I really just want to cringe.

Grammar is important because with today’s popularity of double-entedres and shortening of sentences into bullet form, ‘getting the message across’ is difficult to do. If incorrect noun-verb agreement is used in conjunction with poor grammar, the sentence becomes unreadable and the meaning is lost. Ignoring grammar is just plain lazy.

What can we expect from our tremendously wealthy 20 and 30 somethings? They made their money in the tech age and the communication methods of choice for these young people are tech gadgets. Text messaging and instant messaging is full of abbreviated terms, with no punctuation marks and a lot of slang. This type of written communication is the worst use of the English language! ‘Yo has become a part of our language-When did that happen? Ghetto talk takes the English language, which was originally part of “the mother tongue”, and makes it nasty sounding and so common. Good for you to continue to correct people when they make a grammatical mistake. They may feel angry for the moment, but you may help them in their careers or their relationships. I can’t imagine my kids connecting with others their age who speak with constant grammatical flaws. It would just seem so wrong and uncomfortable for my children. Perhaps the school systems today should teach to a higher level and not “dumb down” the students. Writing is barely taught in grades 3-7. We know their tech gadgets will let the kids of the future communicate with each other with no fear of low grades.

A generation ago in college, I read Roy Copperud’s “Handbook for Journalists,” which seemed then and seems now a good balance between the grammatically pure and the grammatically careless. Like much else in life, it’s all about balance.

Language is a tool to communicate underlying meaning. English as a language can be both precise and maddeningly idiosyncratic (e.g., historic spellings). Those who are skilled enough to tweak the language in even ungrammatical ways should be applauded if they do so in an appealing way and if they deepen meaning.

Think of a race car. Those who cannot do more than apply old rules are like engineers who only know the specs of the car. Those who can push the car and tweak out a little more performance will not only go faster, but encourage innovation. Those who don’t know enough to even handle the car are going to crash and burn, and that’s never a pretty sight.

First Miss Grundy, and now Mr. Weatherbee. My personal favorite is Miss Beazley.

Until now, I haven’t felt strongly enough about any topic addressed in the Blog to post a comment. However, I consider this one to be particularly important. Grammar and language comprise a vastly important medium of exchange. However, the potential of that medium cannot be fully utilized without adequate efforts to adhere to the rules of it.

First, I concede that no one is perfect. Even the most careful among us is capable of making an occasional typographical or grammatical error. However, the fact that we are not perfect should not excuse the pervasive lack of effort afforded to proper writing. We would not accept such excuses from our doctors, lawyers, athletes or any other worker. So, why then has society decided that grammar isn’t worthy of attention? We have rules of the road and we are penalized by police for failure to follow them. The skilled and professional laborers among us have professional standards to ensure that they act in certain ways. As a society, why do we feel that grammar is so much less important? I assert that grammar and language are the most fundamental means of exchange in society; for that reason, we should take care to ensure that we are understood as we intend to be understood. Grammar allows us to do this.

Second, to Joe’s point, discourse is ultimately aimed at being understood. I accept that if one is understood by one’s constituency, one is an effective communicator. That is exactly the reason that grammar rules exist. They provide a framework in which everyone can operate equally. Various linguists and philosophers have discussed the assumptions that exist in society that enable us to relate to each other. Grammar is simply one of these assumptions. Violation of those assumptions lead to communication failures. While I concede that different frameworks exist in different societies, the grammar discussed here is the framework in which all English speakers operate, regardless of whether they are willing to adhere to the rules.

As money provides a framework for exchanging value, language and its rules provide a framework in which ideas can be exchanged. If poor grammar works for you, use it. However, I would ask you to consider that one could be more universally understood if accepted grammatical conventions were more universally followed. In short, the system works best if everyone participates in it.

My chief frustration is not when people fall victim to the more obscure rules of grammar or who slip up on an occasional word and/or typo. The real frustration is people who don’t try. The people who simply refuse to memorize certain rules like there/their/they’re, or do not understand the difference between its and it’s. My girlfriend came home the other day to announce that one of her coworkers was using “IM-speak” in a chemistry notebook for a pharmaceutical company. I’m sorry, when was “b4″ acceptable to the FDA?

I don’t require perfect grammar from the masses, just a small amount of effort. Those who think it doesn’t matter are simply fooling themselves – you appear smarter and your comments are taken more seriously if they’re worded properly.

You know the stupid one that irks me constantly? The signs in the supermarket that say, “10 Items or Less” – it’s 10 Items or Fewer, dammit. Just call me Mr. Pedantic…

You know what? If people cared as much about ending war, pollution and poverty as much as they clearly either care or passionately don’t care about grammar, the world would be a better place.

Bing:

From one blogger to another, here is my spin on the subject of message board grammar from a few months back:

http://udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=529

My blog is supposed to be about college hoops, but like you, I veer off on the occasional tangent.

Okay, I am going to take a slightly opposing stance on this one. First I’m amazed that one of my counterparts did not submit a post on this. That person is a bit of a grammar snob. I think that proper grammar skills while admirable are not scientifically connected to higher intelligence. Ask those around me and they will tell you I am a great communicator. Written or verbal. Ask those closest to me and they will immediately ask “Did you spell check that? Let me read it first….” I have a terrible issue with grammar if I am not paying close attention and double checking everything twice before hitting send. The irony is that I was a speech major…I won awards in persuasive speech and debate. My mother had amazing grammar skills, her head spun every time she read something I wrote. The essence of what I was writing was wonderful but my grammar was horrible. I try very hard to over compensate for my “handicap” because I am painfully aware of the perception it casts. That being said – A few months back an associate and I were discussing the direction of a joint business effort. While we both knew that there was no way we were going to continue working together, she took this opportunity to throw my grammar skills in my face as part of her reasoning. While I remained cool as a cucumber and resisted the urge to throw many of her own incompetence’s back into her face, I stewed on this for days. Obviously this blog entry has “re-opened” the wound. Yes, my grammar can be horrible. But guess what – I have great people skills, I close deals and I get the job done. I deliver on my word AND I retain business. Oh yeah, and I’m reliable. At the end of the day while I have great appreciation for those of you that can compose the sublime sentence and always speak with perfection – of equal importance is the value of what you write and what you say. I’ve read great grammar that tasted like cardboard and I’ve read powerfully, passionate prose that likened itself to decadent chocolate cake. If I had my choice? I’d take passion and a sense of conviction….then I’ll have someone edit the grammar for errors. We all have our shortcomings and we all have our strengths. Play upon your strengths and be conscious of your short comings. There are appropriate and respectful ways to correct someone. But NO ONE is completely flawless.

Story first! grammar second.

HOW ABOUT THE PERVASIVE, “IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, SEE MYSELF” or worse, from an attorney, if you need more information, call myself.

Money can buy good grammar. Good grammar can’t buy money. Who cares?

Wow! Quite the turn out about grammar. Wonder what the turn out would be if you wrote about Opera reflecting on the death of her dog (Yesterday’s Yahoo Feature)? Can we go back to debating business issues?

This is a debating forum? And here I was under the impression that it is a satire page (pardon the grammatical faux pas utilized for conversational flavor).

My ex girlfriend used to correct my grammar all the time… that is why she is my ex girlfriend. It is very anoying, i know how to spell, but i choose when and where to do it

She used to ask me if i knew how to spell… just to get under my skin. I would pull my marketing papers and show her all those A+ i got.

THis discussion brings a great parallel.

I rather have a jazz musician play with his heart and be musical (perhaps get some wrong notes in the process) rather than have him get all the right notes but sound like any other person.
I rather have him swing instead of playing exactly what is on page.

The message is so much more important. THe fact that people are willing to break business relationships because of grammar shows how superficial we all are.

Ill take anyday a confident, reliable person with good peoples skills over one who has awesome grammar.

You dont close the deal with the paper but with the person

Denmark, you make a good parallel, but it breaks down, in my opinion. Great jazz musicians have superb understanding and mastery of the TECHNIQUE and theory behind the music they are playing. They are like the abstract artists of the 20th Century, who mastered the underlying skills of drawing, color, light, shadow, and then CHOSE to ignore or bend them to their own purposes. When Coltrane or Ornette made a squawking noise with their horns, there was intention, genius and rebellion behind that sound. They didn’t do it out of ignorance and error.

There are quite a few on this subject who make another error, I think. Of course nobody should give up creative, cool, intelligent conversation in favor of good grammar. Nobody ever LOST a deal because they mis-spoke. But bad grammar, I still believe, is like a big fat zit on the end of your nose. Sure, you can still close a deal with your charm, knowledge and energy. But who needs the zit?

I for one have long given up trying to insure proper grammar and correct usage in my speach. actually, the affect of such effort is that people think you’re pretentious, or worse, your grammar is incorrect. Most people think they know better than me because I speak English as a second language. Actually? It’s my third.

We should give the speaker some slack in the case of “between you and I.” Think about it, at least he tries. Also, perhaps he’s refering to a third party by the name “I.”

Sometime around 1988, in the Dark Ages of the Internet, I participate in an email list with 1500 subscribers. One day a young man decided to sound off about what an ignorant and stupid dolt his boss was, lambasting him with criticisms for his lack of sophistication. The poster’s message had three sentences in it, with a total of 13 spelling, punctuation, and grammatical errors. I sent him a reply backlist congratulating him on berating his boss so eloquently before so many readers, and assured him that I would be forwarding a copy of the email to the boss, which of course I could not do, but I doubt the kid knew that.

Many years ago there was a Virgil Partch cartoon in the New Yorker of a moronic looking youth carrying a sign through the streets that said:

THE WURLD IS ROOLED BY DOPS

beware of people who start a sentence with “irregardless.”

I have always been annoyed by incorrect grammar. (Even though I’ve forgotten some of the rules over the years). The most recent change that bothers me is instead of saying That’s so much fun! They say That’s so fun! Makes no sense to me.